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Natalie Fairlie

on her experience with prejudice

unedited audio recording of interview below

Interview with Natalie Fairlie [audio]
00:00 / 46:57

What is your definition of prejudice?

Technical definition: having a preconceived judgement about a person or a group of people… with a negative view or bias to that group.

Personal definition: prejudice can be accepting that not everything is fine, just because it is for me

Would you consider yourself a person of colour?

After educating myself more and asking more questions, not only of myself but of my parents, yes I would. I have not in the past, but it was really interesting because both my parents were Italian, so they were both born in Italy. They shared with me, as did my grandparents, aspects of life when they came out to Australia, post-World War II They were the recipients of racial prejudice. I always thought it was theirs, that it was their racial prejudice, and it was really unfair to them, that only they experienced it. But actually, these are my grandparents and my parents, this is a real direct line to me. I never identified myself as part of that. Now I do identify in that way.

Have you experienced any prejudices?

For me it started at school age. In a year level of around 200,  there would have been maybe five to ten of European background, and of that five to ten, there were probably only two or three that were females. I found the male Europeans were like a mob, a pack and they stuck together, and they were almost dismissive of the Australians because they seemed so together and supported. They were really good with me in being inclusive, but when it came to defending one’s position, I found myself on my own because I didn’t have this power and this voice behind me whereas the boys did. I felt they really respected me, but its not like they would have necessarily gone into battle for me when sometimes things happened. I copped it all, like my parents were really strict according to others. I associated that strictness with my culture, because that’s how my parents were raised, as a very Italian conservative family… I copped a lot of stuff about that, so much about food and events, there were a lot of social things I could not do because I always had something on socially with the family, and people were really dismissive of that.

The other thing I found, especially from talking to some Australian Vietnamese people who grew up in Australia, that the prejudice they felt was just always feeling different, and often that different feeling, feeling isolated, not different like ‘I’m unique’, different as in ‘I don’t belong’, or ‘I’m not part of this group’, or ‘there’s just something a little bit wrong with me in this environment’. Looking back, did I feel that? Yeah, absolutely! I pushed it away though. I tried to rise above it. I was never going to let it stop me, but deep down at certain intervals, it really got me, and it was quite evident, quite evident in the number of students, there wasn’t a lot of diversity in our year level, I don’t think I’ve experienced that lack of diversity again; lack of racial diversity. I experienced other prejudices later in the work place, but not like that, it was quite amplified in my school life. My parents were not cognisant of that (I don’t think I ever mentioned it) I think they thought, again it was my parents story, my grandparents story, it wasn’t going to be mine; I was born in Australia, how could it, why would I experience that? I never sought any help because I didn’t think they would understand, so I just battled on as best I could.
 
 
I look at where we are and I think we are incredibly fortunate, because our children arrived in Vietnam at ages eight, five and three, and so they’ve entered a country, never been to Asia before, and straight away went into an international school. My youngest daughter is the only one in her current class with English as a first language, everybody else speaks another language, the curriculum is taught in English. They don't have friends where there are more than two of the same culture, so they have got so many different cultures. The diversity is incredible. Every year they have this international culture day where it’s basically an opening ceremony of the Olympics. Everybody dresses in their home country, they have a flag, a flag bearer, the country name, and everybody walks around the field and then at the end, everybody and their parents make some food from their home country. It is amazing! Its huge! When we first arrived the principal said “ there are more countries here represented, than the United Nations has at their councils” it was incredible and I thought if you really want to see diversity of culture come together and merge and operate and have to work it all out, an international school does it, because there are just shy of 70 different cultures. PHENOMINAL! The first thing we had to do was buy a map, we bought a full world map because the children needed to know where their friends were from. Then there were other things they learnt which were in stark contrast to my school life; one of my daughters came home and she said one of her friend’s name, who was Korean, and as she was talking about them, I mispronounced it, we were walking home from school and she stopped dead in her tracks and she said “you need to listen to how I’m saying this, it is Dongsop, please don’t call him anything else, he gets really upset, learn his name”. I was speechless and I thought to myself 'wow'.
Properly pronouncing someone’s name is a sign of cultural respect, don’t shorten the name, don’t nickname it, don’t say something that’s easier for you, learn it! I have learnt so much more about adapting and understanding through the children’s experience and I really hope this is informing them about prejudices, but more so than that, that its informing them about solutions to those prejudices or mitigating the prejudice. What are the little things you can do? I’ve been in a meeting before where I’ve mispronounced a name and they corrected me and if you ask they have full respect, and its ok if you get it wrong but practice it until you get it right; its little things like that that make a huge difference.
 
The diversity of culture and language was really celebrated, it was really desired, our children came home wanting to know more about their cultural background because they felt its value and that it mattered because they were seeing it all around them.
 
If we say 'well there is no prejudice or there is no racial prejudice because everything’s fine, because I’m not being nasty to anyone', that’s not quite enough. Because actually, rather than looking at the prejudice let’s look at the diversity. Is there diversity? No? Well guess what, you’re probably going to have some issues if it’s not there, because you don’t know, you don’t know the difference yet, because if you’re surrounded by everyone that’s just like you, whatever that is, you don’t have to accept any challenge to that motion. For me, I think the key to this is promoting diversity, having more difference, because if you’ve got that, you’ve got a better chance of knowing that just because everything seems fine for me, doesn’t mean it is fine for that person.

How did it make you feel?

Often very isolated, lacking in self-confidence, not sure I belonged, you know, really not sure at all, feeling very, very ostracised. So that point there, to move over that, or through it, to try and get support and help from others who may understand or have experienced it, is tough. I really appreciate that for many that’s not possible, or its really difficult depending on the degree of prejudice and abuse they might be suffering from, so that worries me terribly for some people. A lot of the people I come into contact with through the foundation, we know that that’s happening, we know that that happens, and when it's children, it's awful. It’s about even when I’m not in it, what can I do to keep staying informed. It’s about not accepting that the status quo is all good. It's not all good. We actually need to say that we will always work so that it is good, but if we say it’s all good, we’re cutting short the educational journey and the awareness piece way too early. 

Do you have any prejudices and if so, what are they?

I think there’s always a degree of prejudice we bring depending on how well informed or educated we are, and I like to think of myself as informed and educated but I always know education never ever ceases or ends. So actually when I remain open and without ego, to believe that even I am not fully informed, and what I am assuming to be the case may actually not be. So, what are my prejudices? I think that the way I have understood myself a bit more is because of what I have experienced in the workplace, I know you’re focusing on racial prejudice but I experienced probably, in my opinion, a high degree of somewhat severe prejudice in the workplace, and that was in relation to, there was no doubt about it, that I was surrounded by misogynists, and it was very difficult for me as a female in the workplace. I was at very senior levels, and I experienced a lot of prejudicial treatment against me.
So that’s that, but coming back to my prejudices, I think what I have done in the workplace to get by, and I’m not saying this as an excuse because I’ve just done this anyway, is I have made assumptions about people and I haven’t been challenged because of some of the roles I had. Particularly when I got into management roles, I would make certain assumptions about people, maybe where they’d gone to school, maybe their English proficiency, so sometimes I would say 'maybe that might be a problem in front of some of our clients'. They were definitely things I had to think about, but I was also making a lot of assumptions too. Especially when I was reading a resume and I hadn’t even asked more questions, I was forming a view without going to more enquiry, and the thing as well that I found that happened, and then I knew why some men later on  took such great advantage of me in workplaces, is because I didn’t have teams that were diverse enough to challenge me. I would walk away and go “nope, I’m not going to hire that person”, and people would say to me “why” and I would say “I don’t know, gut feeling, don’t like it, not the right fit.” Now that could be true, right, fine, we all have gut instincts, but actually, gut instinct is often where the prejudice lies, if you ask yourself the question, and I don’t think I did enough of that, I don’t think I really asked myself. I thought ‘I’ve got the right, and I’ve been taught to go with your gut, if it doesn’t feel right it might not be right, and a lot of times that can be right, like if you’re about to cross a road and your gut feeling is that there’s going to be someone swerving around the corner and you pull back then sure, that’ll save your life. However, this is a really different type of gut feel, because it’s based on an assumption, and if it’s an assumption about another person, I now feel I have the duty to that person, to ask, “why do I form that view?”, and if that view is not equitable and fair, or there is a connotation I am drawing in without exploration or having someone else to challenge me or putting it to that person, or allowing that person the opportunity to share, then I am being prejudicial, and I am really conscious of that now and I don’t think I have done that anywhere more than in the workplace, which is really interesting because that’s where I suffered my own prejudice.
Again, I think that I really think hard about that now, and I’ve really had to do that here in Vietnam too, because now with covid, all the ex-pats in the office pretty much had to leave, and they got stuck where they were. There’s me and one other now. We’ve got 50-60 in the office, so there’s me and our photographer who's an English guy and he sort of works part time anyway, but I’m in a senior position and I have to deal with a lot of the Vietnamese staff very often, and they operate in their way and I operate in my way. We meet in the middle most of the time, but sometimes when I am frustrated or whatever, no, probably because I am in the minority, and I feel a little bit ashamed about this I’m pulling myself up on it, I am in the minority. So when I am in a room of all our managers and there’s 15 and they’re all Vietnamese, and they’re all speaking English because I am in there; if I wasn’t in that room they would 100 percent be speaking Vietnamese, they all speak English because I am there, so one of me and 15 have to adapt. I I’m respectful the minute I walk in I feel respect, because I think 'you know what, they’re showing adaptability and flexibility, that’s the least I can do back', but I’m not saying I do that perfectly, sometimes I’ll get really frustrated and I walk away and talk to someone like my boss who’s the CEO, and she'll say that this is how you have to really communicate that point to the Vietnamese because this is why they’re doing that. Back in Australia would I have called myself up that quickly? No I would not, I am calling myself up quickly because I am in the minority, and I am in their country and I am in their space, and so I know I must give them that respect, and I am so grateful for the respect they give me, I really am. But I think I’m not so aware, and I haven’t been so aware back at home [Australia].

And even your questions, thank you, have made me reflect quite a lot on some of the people I interviewed, some people in the workplace, but it was probably more people that came across our desks from a recruitment perspective, so it really made me think. Your questions really did make me think, so I’m very grateful for that. The questions have shifted something for me.

How have you learnt to cope with other people projecting their prejudices, and maybe help to shift their views/perspective?

I think as I shared before, its taking active steps to be informed, and learn from others as well, like ‘have you experienced this? What did you do? How did you move around it?’, there are huge pearls of wisdom and gems in that, that’s what I do with my current boss. I’ve done that certainly when I was experiencing my own sort of gender-based prejudice, I looked for other women. I looked for other women I knew; very little could advise me, so I ended up searching globally for it. I looked at women in positions of authority and management roles, and I learnt about their stories, I read their biographies if they had them, I looked at some of their speeches, I read some of their articles. I looked at a whole range of women, a couple of senior women in Australian politics and business life. I think its about firstly you need to be understood, you need to be heard, and the only way you can be understood or heard is to find someone who’s experienced the same sort of things, and the second level is, have they then also found the strategies and the tools to either circumvent it, deal with it, hold to account and so forth. So, I think that’s probably how I did, that said, the path to get there was often pretty difficult, really, really difficult.

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